We're Reading talks to the philosophy professor and author of The Second Life Herald: The Virtual Tabloid that Witnessed the Dawn of the Metaverse.
First, could you give our readership a beginner’s introduction about your involvement with online communities?
I've been involved with online communities for a long time, beginning with BBSs (electronic bulletin boards) in the days before the Internet. I became especially fascinated with online communities when I joined the WELL around 1991. I was blown away by the kinds of important thinkers I ran into on the WELL. The WELL was a kind of cybersalon for me, introducing me to a number of deep thinkers who were wrestling with the conceptual issues that eventually became the subject of my first two collections on cyberspace: High Noon on the Electronic Frontier (1995), and then Crypto Anarchy, Cyberstates, and Pirate Utopias (2001). In the second book I became fascinated with the possibility of cyberstates forming outside of the control and purview of nation states, and the emergence of organic communities and governance structures in these cyberstates. When I started looking at massively online games and virtual worlds I was struck by how many of the ideas in the Crypto Anarchy book were coming to fruition and I began tracking events and reporting them in my online newspapers (The Alphaville Herald and The Second Life Herald).
In the online community of Second Life, people are able to create virtual characters that can range from 
mystical animals to standard humans. Your avatar is named Urizenus Sklar and is said to be a younger, more muscular version of you. What do you think about the creation of these avatars and how people express themselves with them?
"Younger and more muscular" lol. This is something that the reporter for the Chronicle of Higher Education said. But that reporter must be doing too much chronic. In real life I'm an Adonis. My avatar is just a pale shadow of my real life mack daddiness.
In general though, creating an avatar online is not so different from buying new clothes in real life. You buy clothes that allow you to look good, but also to express something about yourself. Clothes are part of the mode of presentation that we use to present ourselves to others. That's what avatars do too. We craft avatars that allow us to construct modes of presentations for ourselves, with the goal of helping us to communicate more effectively with other people online. Avatars can be used deceptively, of course; effective communication doesn't mean true communication.
Urizenus Sklar is often referred to as a “muckraking journalist.” Do you think this is a fair description?
I think that's about right, but at this point he fits more in the role of owner of a muckraking tabloid than the role of being a journalist. He spends too much time on his virtual yacht drinking virtual Cristal. He's gone soft (and he was lazy to begin with!). That isn't good news for the future of virtual journalism!
Given their enormous popularity, why do you think people seek a virtual “second” life?
The eye candy brings people in to visit Second Life, but they only stay if they establish meaningful and productive personal relationships inside Second Life. As it turns out only 5 to 10 percent of the people who visit second life stick around for any meaningful amount of time. This suggests that most people aren't finding what they are looking for, or more likely they have no idea what they are supposed to be looking for. This isn't the fault of the users. The mainstream press has been spewing nonstop misinformation about Second Life for years now, and corporate advertising agencies and PR firms have been spinning the same misinformation. Their error is thinking that virtual worlds are about flashy experiences and eye candy. The error presumes that virtual worlds have their roots in video games. In point of fact you need to look at electronic bulletin boards and chat spaces to understand virtual worlds, because that is really what it is about: socializing, community, and finding people of similar interests.
How do you see the virtuality movement evolving over the next ten years?
I am asked this question a lot, and usually the questioner wants to know where the technology is going. In that case the question is really confused. If you keep your eye on the simple truth that virtual worlds are really about social interaction then you can get a vague picture of where things are going, but only very vague. If people have something to communicate they will use whatever tools are at their disposal to do it. If people develop tools that allow people to communicate more effectively then that is where things will go, but usually a tool designed for some other purpose is simply coopted by the community and used as a communication tool. Remember that Edison thought that the phonographic was going to be used for stenographic purposes in business, and Bell thought the telephone was going to be used as an aid for the hard of hearing. Neither saw the power of these tools for communicating. As William Gibson said, "the street finds its own uses for tools." What he might have added is that the primary use is communicating and socializing.
The SL platform can be used for many purposes other than just its obvious gaming functions. What do you think the greatest contribution of this virtual world would or could be?
Actually it is a horrifically bad platform for gaming, and I know because I was involved in a project that attempted to construct a D&D style Player vs Player game inside of Second Life. We failed and no one has enjoyed much success in that regard. On the other hand, it is a good platform for geographically separated people to meet and exchange ideas or conduct business.
My sense is that one of the best and most interesting applications of this is turning out to be in art. Business people have plenty of alternative ways of meeting people, not least is flying somewhere business class or using video conferencing. For artists though, I think we are rapidly achieving a critical mass of artists and in some ways it is going to be like Paris in its heyday. Second Life offers a very plastic medium for constructing graphical images and sharing them and creating contexts for sharing (building a gallery is easy). Artists don't have to move to New York or Paris anymore. They can just log on and interact. I predict this will be the single biggest contribution. I think there will also be many interesting contributions on the literary end too, some of it involving roleplaying within certain fictional worlds and genres.
Your book addresses a lot of weighty issues that simply did not exist prior to the rise of online gaming communities. Who, for example, should write the laws that ultimately govern these metaverses? The parent corporations? The participating avatars and their Real Life counterparts? The federal government?
The real question isn't "who should" but rather who is best able to write the laws. The problem with expecting the game companies to do it is that they have no training or knowledge of how to proceed in this project. When the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written for example, it was informed by people like Jefferson and Franklin with robust backgrounds in Enlightenment philosophy and principles of law and ethics. Well, who are their counterparts in a gaming company? Gifted software programmers I suppose. Nothing against them, but if they attempt to address legal principles they are going to fail because they don't know what they are doing. Of course the problem, as Lawrence Lessig has observed, is that the programmers are actually writing the new laws into the software of these worlds. Not only are the laws bad, but they are not transparent. We are getting compiled laws (in the sense of "compiled programs") that are invisible to us and have never been subjected to thoughtful discussion. Given that our lives are more and more taking place in virtual worlds, then that is a frightening prospect.
The other problem is that if the game company has a lawyer on staff, the lawyer will know some things about US corporate law, but most of the people in Second Life aren't in the United States. I'm convinced that it would be possible for organic dispute resolutions systems to emerge in these online spaces but the game companies love to play Greek gods and dabble in disputes (often to protect favorites and sometimes for no reason at all). That has the effect of killing off user based attempts to develop governance structures.
Many of the principles for which you are fighting in Second Life (SL) – constitutional freedoms, legal jurisdiction, corporate responsibility – are battles that we encounter every day in Real Life (RL). Why did you choose the SL arena rather than the RL one?
I'm involved in real life legal fights as well. (An amicus brief that I joined was the first brief to be submitted to the US Supreme court on CD ROM!) But there are plenty of people tracking real life courts and laws. I was concerned that virtual spaces were becoming nearly as important and almost no one way paying any attention to what was happening.
The fact that Second Life grants participants intellectual property rights and ownership of their creations was a forward-thinking move, allowing avatars to create businesses and livelihoods. What else needs to happen or change for metaverse existences to continue to grow and thrive?
Well, Second Life grants IP rights and ownership, but then it doesn't. If you read the terms of service they claim that they can seize all of your assets "for any reason or for no reason" and that *they* can use your IP in any way they like for ever and ever. So the Second Life PR says one thing and the legal fine print says something else entirely. There was recently a case in which Second Life seized the property of a player (a lawyer as it turns out) and he sued them. A settlement was reached, but not before a court ruled that aspects of the Second Life terms of service were "unconscionable". For my money the whole matter is left kind of murky, but the bottom line is this: if you really want things to take off and if you really want people to invest in your world, you can't reserve the right to take everything away "for any reason or no reason" without any hearing or any form of judicial review.
Do you consider yourself a blogger or a journalist (or a little of both)? Is there a difference? How does the fact that you report primarily on Second Life, as opposed to Real Life news items complicate this distinction?
Nearly every blogger is a journalist in my view. To me a journalist is someone that keeps or contributes to a public journal of what is happening. Obviously there are varying standards of journalism and I think its good that we have a broad range of standards. This contributes to a robust media ecology. You need more than the New York Times. You need outfits like Drudge and The Pennysaver News too.
Reporting on Second Life is absolutely no different from reporting on any other topic. It's reporting on a community of people -- albeit a community that is not geographically localized and a community that has a preferred medium of communication and interaction (the Second Life software).
The SL stories featured in The Second Life Herald bear more than passing resemblance to the headlines we’d expect to see in RL: organized crime, corruption, prostitution. Are these chosen avatar behaviors simply the game being played, or do they say something more fundamental about human nature?
The question supposes that there is a big difference between gameplay and fundamental human nature. But of course our games tap into very deep aspects of human nature -- the need to contest each other, form clans, fight, attract members of the opposite sex, acquire fame and power etc. So you can say its "only gameplay" but in point of fact it is saying more about who we are than we are willing to communicate in polite company.
I've had my 15 minutes of fame, but it has divided into 15 second chunks and scattered across a three year period. I'm not sure that is enough visibility to affect the cause one way or another. I will say, however, that things have changed a lot in the last three years. When I began talking about game companies acting fairly and giving users a role in creating governance people stared at me like I was from Mars. Now the idea may not be mainstream, but everyone working in virtual worlds is familiar with the meme and they have to engage it.
What are “game instantiation events”? Is this performance art for the digital age?
My favorite game instantiation event occurred at my hotel room at the South by Soutwest festival in Austin, Texas back in 2006. Phillip Torrone and Limor Fried hacked a Roomba robotic vacuum cleaner so they could control it with their laptop via a blue tooth connection. Then they made a frog suit for it and tried to get the Roomba frog back and forth across 6th St. in Austin, controlling it from my hotel balcony at 1 am. (It made several clean trips before it was crushed by a Toyota Four Runner). The idea of a game instantiation event is that you make the game real. If you think about it, Second Life and its economy and currency is one big game instantiation event. It isn't performance art. Its about showing people how the line between video games and reality bleeds and maybe doesn't exist at all.
According to The Chronicle of Higher Education, you believe that virtual campuses have shown a marked lack of imagination because they closely model themselves on their utilitarian, physically functional counterparts in RL. Besides architectural freedom of expression, how else can virtual campuses improve?
It's interesting that many of the builds in Second Life (not just the campuses) are attempts to make simulacra of real world structures. Well, why? I have no idea why people think that is a good idea. It's like they are saying "we are so devoid of interesting ideas that given the opportunity to build whatever we want, unfettered by the laws of physics, the best thing we could think of was to reproduce our real world campus." Show some creativity in your virtual architecture! Beyond that, the real question is this: what activities are you planning? What events? What discussion groups? Things are being done in this regard no doubt, and in the end that is really what matters -- not the virtual architecture but the social aspect of the online experience.
What are you working on now?
Too many things. I'm trying to finish a book on the philosophy of linguistics, then I want to get back to the philosophy of time. Along the way I'm doing some work in epistemology, the philosophy of language, and maybe - just maybe - another book on social media.
What books have been important to you, personally?
Well, odd as it may seem, Et Tu, Babe? by Mark Leyner has deeply influenced the whole style of the Second Life Herald, as has the writing of the so-called New Journalists like Hunter S. Thompson and Tho
mas Wolff. We are trying to give a different -- sometimes gonzo -- perspective on what is going on in Second Life, with a dash of Mark Leyner just to take things totally over the top.
I was also deeply influenced by City of Quartz by Mike Davis. I've never read anything else that could geek out so hardcore (mining the minutes of suburban neighborhood improvement committees for example) and still coming up with an astounding narrative about power at the macro level. Somehow he could study the trees AND the forest and show us we couldn't understand one part without the other. This is something that I faced in the very beginning with the Herald. Everyone wants to write grand philosophical treatises, but that isn't where the action is at this point. It's too early for that. When we started up I told my reporters to read Darwin and the Barnacles by Rebecca Stott. Darwin spent 10 years doing nothing but studying barnacles while a draft of the Origin of the Species sat locked in a drawer. You have to geek out before you can drop the deep on people.
Who are your heroes?
I don't think I have any heroes. I don't think we need or want heroes. Aren't those the people we send out to do battle for us? Fight your own battles. I don't need someone to represent for me. On the other hand there are people that do things that just blow my mind and I wonder how on earth they came up with that. Noam Chomsky is a case in point there. But I don't elevate someone to hero just because they can do what I can't.
What are you reading now?
Leaning over to look at what is lying next to my bed...
Scientific Perspectivism by Ronald Giere, Failed States by Noam Chomsky, a collection on the philosophy of literature by Eileen John and Dominic Lopes, and I'm rereading My Cousin My Gastroenterologist by Mark Leyner. Oh and I just read Creating a World Without Poverty by Mohammed Yunus. But of course mostly I'm reading journal articles and online rants and manifestos.
Which person, living or deceased, would you most like to meet?
I'm going to go with Paris Hilton. If I met Aristotle or Plato or Malcolm X I'm not sure what I would ask them. I'd be too nervous. Talking to Jesus might be useful of course -- I could ask him: "did you really tell George Bush to invade Iraq?" But that seems rude, doesn't it? So Paris Hilton it is, because I have some businesses to discuss with her and she isn't that intimidating. She was in Toronto recently and I was hoping I would bump into her. I actually have an idea about how she and I could collaborate on a philosophy book. No, really! And I promise you that collaboration would. be. mind. blowing.
What are your three favorite movies?
I used to have a clear answer to this question but now I'm not so sure. I think I'm going to go with The Seventh Seal, Apocalypse Now!, and Blackhawk Down. I understand that there is a kind of Heart of Darkness theme to all of them, but what I really like is how those movies can transport me to another place. I think that is what good movies really do. Everyone thinks the plot is primary and the characters and setting are there to advance the plot, but I think that the plot is there to draw us into the world and to help us know the characters. Plot is just a tool to help the immersion. Just like in good video games.
What is on your mp3 player (8-track, turntable, etc.) right now?
My latest mp3 download was a compilation of songs by various artists covering The Shaggs. It's called Better than the Beatles: a Tribute to the Shaggs, and you don't know life until you hear Deerhoof cover "My Pal Foot Foot". I have my XM radio set to Deep Tracks (XM 40) which plays a lot of what was called FM Album music back in the 70s. CD player in the car has got a crunk mix by a DJ in Houston, the Velvet Underground banana album, and also some Gorillaz. On my turntable at home I have Johnathan Richman and the Modern Lovers. My 8-track was sold at a rummage sale 30 years ago.
What does all this have in common? I like music that plays the edges, is nonformulaic and borrows and samples heavily. I feel like the collision of styles and cultures always results in something interesting (just like in Second Life) and I think that controlled imperfection (downtuned instruments, being off just a fraction of a beat) is fantastic when it works.
What would you still like to learn?
There is so much I wish I could learn I don't even know where to begin. I definitely want to learn some advanced game theory, network theory, Latin, Chinese. The list goes on and on.
What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
I think that if there was something I wanted to attempt I would have attempted it, because I am often dabbling in other professions (The Second Life Herald being a case in point). Sometimes I think I need to pull back from all the fields I'm dabbling in and focus more on my core profession. Then I think: naw.
If you could relive your college years what, if anything, would be different?
I think if I was given another chance I would try studying.
What is your most marked characteristic?
Since I received this question I've been canvasing people about it. The answers are all over the place, ranging from it being my voice to it being my shirts (i.e. my baller sartorial sense I guess). My daughter says its my sense of humor, but she's 11 so that tells you the level my sense of humor is at. My ex-wife says says that I have this skewed way of looking at the world, and (i) it is out of my control and (ii) it shows up in the philosophical work I do, making my work seem fresh, and also making up for me not being all that smart.
What natural gift would you most like to possess?
I wish I was stronger mathematically.
What question do you wish interviewers would ask?
I wish they would ask "will you accept an honorarium of $10,000 for this interview?"